hontou ni Stripey Insists Sisters Cry Oniichan Now

1. 

   *shrug*
   October 27th, 2008 - 10:27

   That’s basically how I learned to enjoy Allison & Lillia. The anime is decidedly inferior to the novels, but still enjoyable in spite of the gaping plot holes and arbitrary changes. I really should complete my series of reviews of the novels that I started writing, but life has sidetracked them until after the JLPT this December. Now, off to study some more…

   ( REPLY )
2. 

   Skane
   October 27th, 2008 - 12:52

   I enjoyed Black Cat despite its departure from the manga-canon, and Full Metal Alchemist was similarly fulfilling; but there comes a time when the departure is too stark, too… different. That is when I begin to have “issues” with the adaptation.

   Heck, for all its naysayers, I enjoyed Tsukihime too.

   My personal mantra has always been, “In the spirit of the original”. Therefore, if it is reasonably plausible that it can occur in an alternate universe, I will seldom spit bile onto it. It is usually only when they assassinate the characteristics of the characters, that I will implode with rage and fantasise about burning/flaying those responsible.

   Recently, this has been ZnT. Oh how I imagine breaking the fingers of the people responsible for its’ defilement and sticking red-hot pokers up their arses.

   Currently, Toradora seems to be in danger of this, but it is still early days for it. We’ll see how it goes.

   Cheers.

   ( REPLY )
3. 

   Guest
   October 27th, 2008 - 13:17

   Adaptation faithfulness only becomes an issue within niche markets like anime (where a good chunk of the audience is familiar with a source).

   With mainstream TV and film, how often do people complain about source butchery? In some cases, the source becomes little more than an inspiration/basic foundation for the new work, yet this doesn’t stop most critics from judging the latter on its own merits (as if it were an original story). Few care whether the original story is accurately recreated, or whether the characters have changed as long as the makers present solid entertainment.

   ( REPLY )
4. 

   Vexx
   October 27th, 2008 - 15:22

   Since the whole purpose of an anime adaptation … is to *adapt* the anime. I expect changes to emphasis, scenes, where things happen,etc. I also expect a “reader’s digest” slice’n'dice simply because of time budget.

   Changing the characters themselves or rewriting the general story context or throwing the story away and replacing it with filler, and I wonder why they didn’t just create something from scratch.

   The Toradora example: I’m enjoying the series (and yeah, I’ve read some of the novels and manga now) but I’m also seeing that there seems to be some tension between what Taiga *is* (and what I suspect the writing team understands) and what some production decision-maker wants to make her into (“like that girl in ZnT, yeah!!”). That said, I’m still finding it entertaining — though apparently I see more texture and complexity in the relationship between Ryuuji and Taiga than some who are pulling their hair out.

   In some sense, if the anime compels me to buy the merchandise (manga, novels, etc), I suppose its served its primary purpose. However, I go into a series assuming its someone else’s retelling of a story — the question is whether they mangled the *spirit* of the tale.

   ( REPLY )
5. 

   Haesslich
   October 27th, 2008 - 15:37

   I’m with Skane – if it feels like the original, then we’re good… since if it feels like they just took the character designs and slapped them onto something the original wasn’t… then it’s not the same series/show at all. Sorta like if they took a tsundere character from a manga and made her into a total yamato nadeshiko-type and changed it from a love story to a shounen action piece. Adaptations are just that – adaptations, not complete reworkings.

   That’s why ZnT and the first half of Shakugan no Shana S2 raise a lot of ire – they took the character designs and threw away whatever made the original series special in the first place, instead substituting things that the originals weren’t (in the case of ZnT, Louise wasn’t a psycho who was ready to murder Saito despite being ‘in love’ with him… Shakugan no Shana 2’s first half was a tepid love comedy instead of being about Shana and her Torch facing the forces of Bal Masque even as they progress their own relationship… which was thrown aside for the first half of the show).

   Guest: The key here is ’solid entertainment’. The original sources often got licensed because they provided solid entertainment, and in the so-called butchery the words ’solid’ and ‘entertainment’ are cast aside in favor of ‘target market’ and ’simplification (read: dumbing-down)’. So if the original target market may not have been as profitable as a wider fanbase would be (ex: they ‘kiddify’ an action show so they can sell toys to the kids instead of focusing on the dramatic elements so they can sell DVD sets and manga to the teenagers and adults), they’ll ‘reimagine’ the show.. and often in doing so lose any elements which made it fun and entertaining.

   ToraDora’s dancing along the edges between adaptation and butchery – at least Ami got some (wordless) screentime and they restored the cut-out part about Kitamura’s confession which puts Taiga’s confession into a context which makes his refusal more meaningful; she confessed a year after he confessed to her (which is when she started to notice him and his niceness), half-expecting him to accept because ‘he felt the same way’. But, this being a year down the road, Kitamura seems to have moved on and his feelings towards Taiga don’t appear to be the same anymore, which is why he is happy to accept her feelings – as a friend.

   But as I said elsewhere, the risk with making an adaptation veer too far from the original source work is twofold: the first is that you risk losing the ‘entertaining’ part by making it too different and ‘original’ (read: what you want the story to be… and the person who is writing the adaptation may be an awful writer), while the second is that people who liked one of the presentations may move onto the other one thinking it’s the same… and then react to the difference by rejecting the whole property and buying NEITHER presentation, and warning others off of it because of their bad experience.

   ( REPLY )
6. 

   Guest
   October 27th, 2008 - 18:27

   I don’t deny the risk that goes with re-imagination. However, I still believe that a product can remain solid entertainment, even if it’s watered down or drastically rewritten.

   Re-envisioning in and of itself isn’t the sin. Presenting bad content is. In that sense, an anime staff should be speared for making a bad show rather than the mere decision of veering from the source (which can turn out good or bad).

   A good example might be adaptations from Nagisa Miyazaki. I think there’s no doubt that Negima! was a major misstep. However, Da Capo worked well in her favor, even with the altered character depictions (with each character, one personality trait was selected and then exaggerated, so portrayal turned out quite differently from the game versions), harem setup, and inclusion of original melodrama.

   Shuffle! was even more extreme since characters were completely rewritten (eg. a sweet, simple character became a yandere. The lead also became indecisive, leading to a harem setup). As with Da Capo, the main conflict was brand new (story became kind of a tortured drama instead of a light-hearted romance). However, the show made Shuffle! much more popular and well-liked than before, even if the spirit changed.

   ( REPLY )
7. 

   Kairu Ishimaru
   October 27th, 2008 - 19:54

   Seconded.

   ( REPLY )
8. 

   double
   October 27th, 2008 - 20:32

   Usually, if the anime adaptation of a manga I like turns out screwed, I’ll just fall back on the manga. Misses are always common when it comes to such an issue. More hits would be much appreciated though.

   ( REPLY )
9. 

   Haesslich
   October 27th, 2008 - 22:07

   Guest: The problem with re-imagining is that a lot of writers who make TV shows are bad writers, period. That’s why they license other properties that have been successful in other media (games, novels, manga) in the first place – that way they don’t have to run the risk of creating an original property, which demands more skill and talent than just adapting what already exists. This, however, leads to another problem; since so many of them can’t write (or direct), when they adapt it and simplify or ‘expand’ things because they’re too expensive to animate or won’t carry over well (or will make the show too long/short), they have to use their bad writing skills… and the results can be mixed, to say the least.

   Let’s look at another J.C. Staff adaptation: Mahoraba. Great show, there.. and some of the anime-original stuff, despite being added in by the director or writers, worked out as they didn’t feel out of place with the rest of the story. Heck, even the anime ending got incorporated (somewhat) into the end of the real manga when the mangaka decided it was time to close the story out, things went together so well.

   But as I said, the problem is a lot of these writers and directors just can’t write… and when they add episodes like Ep 3 of ToraDora in the way they do and write it like it was for Zero no Tsukaima… it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the story. I’ve seen posts on AnimeSuki which had people wondering what was wrong with the episode, since it didn’t feel ‘right’ after seeing episodes 1 and 2, then Episode 4 which returned (somewhat) to the original source material. Episode 3 was almost all anime-original and spun off of a few paragraphs into a full episode about part-time work, and they turned Taiga from a cute (if somewhat clumsy and incoherent) tsundere with a very dere side into Louise. The shift from the verbal violence of episodes 1 and 2, which is what she primarily uses on Ryuuji, to the full-out face-kickings and headstomps of Episode 3… just don’t work, and seemed really out of character as a result, especially as they didn’t show her that overtly violent just an episode before.

   Or let’s look at Nodame Cantabile Pari-hen episodes 3 and 4, which rushed through about 2-3 volumes of the manga between them… and in doing so cut out the orchestra which was a big part of Season 1 along with the whole ‘music’ thing in a show about musicians performing.

   ( REPLY )
10. 

    Xellos-_^
    October 28th, 2008 - 09:44

    actually the best way to enjoy adapations is to not read up on the original source material. it is very hard to approach a adaptation with a open mind if you are already familar with the source material. You are better off reading up on the source material after the watching the adaption.

    ( REPLY )
11. 

    Haesslich
    October 28th, 2008 - 15:39

    Xellos-_^: So you’re like… one of two people who enjoyed Cabbage Love, then? Or Negima the first series? If a show sucks, it SUCKS – whether or not it was adapted well from the source material. It’s like saying that it’s easier to enjoy eating shit if you don’t know what a banana looked like. Shit stinks, is ugly, and obviously came out of a person most of the time; it’s awful on its own recognizance, and no amount of unfamiliarity with the source material can make that change.

    Let’s look at another adaptation – Black Lagoon. Sure, it deviated from the manga quite a bit (and I definitely wasn’t familiar with the manga when the series came out), and swapped around a bunch of events… but it was fun by itself, and stood on its own merits – a distillation of action flick stereotypes and cliches, but done well with interesting characters to boot. And Balalaika, the sexiest scarred mob boss on the planet. It was solid, pure unadulterated seinen fun – about as thoughtful as an action blockbuster from the 1980’s-1990’s… and just as enjoyable.

    ( REPLY )
12. 

    Vexx
    October 28th, 2008 - 23:14

    I think I’ll just stand way over here … but I’m one of the folks who looked at ep 3 of Toradora without having read the source material and said…. WTH? And repeated it about ep 3 especially loudly after seeing ep 4 (which returned to the atmosphere and characterizations of ep 1 & 2). Later I found out that ep 3 was anime-only… which doesn’t speak well of the staff writers.

    Writers can break a show if they lack the skills in creating the stuff between the source grabs. Shuffle! ehhhhh….. great idea for the latter part with good early episode foreshadowing but absolutely hideous execution of transitions from the Sia arc ending on. And terrible in jerking characters around to force a solution. Even then they hedged and essentially tried to pull some nightmarish reset in the last episode.

    This gave it buzz and it was certainly talked about …. but it split the fanbase (and $$$) for the series (stomped away angrily?) and then the “Memories” pastiche basically buried the franchise.

    ( REPLY )
13. 

    Vexx
    October 28th, 2008 - 23:28

    Hmmm, ran out of edit time.

    I wanted to point out I’ve seen very good anime-writes. Mahoraba: Heartful Days stands out as an outstanding example (since it was done about half way through the manga run and they had to make up an ending) and I’ve read the entire manga series. I’m still mostly happy with Tsukuyomi Moon Phase’s anime (still reading the japanese manga series).
    Anime staff writers and directors should just proceed very cautiously before jumping in and letting their egos run amuck. The ultimate purpose is to sell the source material and the merchandise — pissing the fanbase off without a very good reason doesn’t lend itself to that.

    When even someone like me who hasn’t seen the source notices a problem (e.g. Torador ep 3), not a good sign. Hopefully, insta-feedback from the fans is something they hear.

    ( REPLY )
14. 

    Crusader
    October 29th, 2008 - 01:49

    Well for the most part so long as the feel of the original is maintained liberties with the story will largely be tolerated if they are indeed successful, as a rule changing everything is going to result in failure if the original was good before the anime director and writes got their hands on it. However fail in delivery and your adaptation will be sunk no matter what, bad animation being one of the worst causes.

    If a work is in progress or too long then a distillation is probably welcome or ended on a high note in hopes of a continuation. Ouran was an example of a good distillation while Shugo Chara is an example of doing more than what the source material provides. Ouran’s anime adaptation was in my opinion better handled as it did allow for Renge to take on a life of her own despite her notable absence from the manga. Shugo Chara maintains a similar feel but in turning it into a kids show somethings were inevitably lost and while I enjoy it to a degree fillers are a hit a miss.

    True Tears demonstrated how even if the source material is bulldozed the results are not necessarily bad, and given how the source material did not enjoy a huge following the series we got was able to stand on its own merits. Quite why they chose the title of True Tears is beyond me, but in any case it was a good show and remains one of my favorites from 2008.

    ( REPLY )
15. 

    Haesslich
    October 29th, 2008 - 04:04

    Vexx: I noted that about Mahoraba – and the mangaka actually said the anime was very good… and adapted part of the ending (the Kozue running away deep inside her head, and having to get integrated… sorta) into the manga ending. And, IIRC, the ‘cat story’ actually made it into the manga in Volume 7 or 8, after the shoe ended… which says something about how well that anime-original filler fit in with the original story – it was good enough to be officially ‘canonized’ by the mangaka. Sorta like Lucas making a background painting of a certain Twi’lek Jedi (Aalya Secura) into an actual character in the movies because he liked the way she looked.

    Crusader: Bisco Hatori says that the reason she doesn’t give Renge much airtime in the manga is because she tends to steal the show away from everyone else… so she consciously retrains her usage of Renge. Which, of course, the anime didn’t have to worry about – so she got to incorporate her omake appearance (Ouran Host Club Rangers) in the main show. The only thing that really felt ‘odd’ was the ending… but again, given that they had to end the show somehow… couldn’t be helped.

    And as noted – a bad adaptation presented poorly is bad, period. A bad adaptation that stands on its own merits does risk offending the fanbase that they’re trying to sell the product to, especially if people who liked the anime run into the manga and decide they hate the manga AND the anime… or vice versa. Such a thing may have happened to Shuffle… which I will note nobody talks about anymore, whereas Clannad and Kanon still have fans years down the line, even if the anime adaptations took great liberties with the source material; because the presentations of the anime series (Toei and KyoAni) were good enough that they could be enjoyed on their own merits, and because they didn’t completely forget what the games were about.

    ( REPLY )
16. 

    TheBigN
    October 29th, 2008 - 07:40

    I had noted in an earlier post that my main problem with people who complain about adaptations is that the scope as to what is permissible or not. Allow adaptations some breathing room, and even be something wholly different then what you expect. As long as it’s good, it shouldn’t matter how similar it is to the source. The adaptation and the original are two separate things, and it almost always is a strike against the adaptation when you consider them the same, because it’s behind from the start at trying to live up to our expectations. :/

    ( REPLY )
17. 

    Haesslich
    October 29th, 2008 - 15:18

    TheBigN: And note what I said about most writers and directors being horrible at writing… which is why they take a risk when changing things around too much in adaptations; they’re tampering with a formula that was proven to work well enough to solicit licensing as a show, and if done poorly can screw the license as a whole as the backlash may take place not only against the adaptation but the original source materials which were selling very well up until that point.

    I’m a bit less worried about ToraDora at the moment – Episode 5 kept what was needed with regards to the source as far as Ami’s characterization, which lets Taiga show she’s not just abusive towards Ryuuji.

    ( REPLY )
18. 

    Vexx
    October 29th, 2008 - 22:27

    In the case of Toradora!, especially if we get two seasons as some surmise — having only a few filler episodes SEEMS to be greatly reducing the chance of an anime staff writing debacle.

    So far out of 5 episodes, 1,2,4,&5 have been excellent and ep 3 wasn’t terrible as far as Minorin went – it mostly fails because they get Taiga’s persona “wrong” compared with the other episodes. They used a large fat brush when a small, delicate one was called for.

    Fingers crossed that the good trend continues…

    ( REPLY )
19. 

    Vin-nii
    November 1st, 2008 - 03:48

    First thing I think of is FMA. The manga and anime plotline are entirely different (some characters are goood guys when they’re not suppose to be)

    ( REPLY )
20. 

    Stripey
    November 2nd, 2008 - 03:08

    Wow, thanks for the wealth of thoughts/insights. Just one point from me. I’m partial to Xellos-_^’s point actually. When I embark on a series I abstain from the source material since it’d likely to do 2 things – 1) spoil me, 2) create expectations which may or may not be fair to the anime. I draw from a personal experience – Tsukihime.

    The series started so well that I spoiled myself with the Tsukihime plot only to be severely let down by the route the anime taken – Near side of the moon, focusing only on Arcueid. If I haven’t read up, I’m sure I’ve have a fairer assessment of Tsukihime which, upon reflection years later, was not a bad production at all.

    ( REPLY )
21. 

    Haesslich
    November 2nd, 2008 - 03:18

    Stripey: There was no Tsukihime anime. You know that, right? The only good Type-Moon anime that exists is Kara no Kyoukai. And the pitfall of the F/SN anime wasn’t that it was a faithful adaptation so much as the producers had PROMISED an original ending which combined elements of all three routes… but then went with a plain-vanilla Fate route after combining elements for the first six or so episodes. That was a bad adaptation, which was faithful… but in the end was disappointing as it wasn’t executed well. Kara no Kyoukai has been faithful, and entertaining in its own right.

    Now, the Tsukihime MANGA is a good adaptation. It combines elements from all of the routes, and does it in a way which is original and entertaining. This is a great contrast to the Disgaea manga and anime, which was a poor adaptation that was boring and screwed around with the characters to the point that they were unrecognizable. Oh, and the art in the anime sucked too.

    http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z278/mravix9000/Doujin/Hisuisays.jpg

    (Edit: This thing ate my last post)

    ( REPLY )
22. 

    Haesslich
    November 2nd, 2008 - 03:20

    Your blog’s eating my posts again…

    ( REPLY )
23. 

    Zyl
    November 2nd, 2008 - 23:21

    Apologies, Haesslich. The AJAX Comment Edit plugin on HNTD was outdated. I’ve just intervened using my admin privileges over here to fix that.

    ( REPLY )
24. 

    Stripey
    November 3rd, 2008 - 09:41

    Zyl: Thanks bro!

    Haesslich: Sorry for the distress caused. *spanks spam filter*

    On Tsukihime, you brought a very important point into the picture – execution. Degree of faithfulness to any adaptation can become irrelevant if the series was well executed which, to be fair, Tsukihime did accomplish to some measure with its sinister mood and initial hook. Sadly the anime plot was so swiss-cheesed that the tale just imploded.

    I’m looking fwd to KaraKyou though.

    ( REPLY )
25. 

    Haesslich
    November 3rd, 2008 - 16:43

    Stripey: As I said earlier… it doesn’t matter if the adaptation’s faithful or not if they don’t execute things well and make it awful as a consequence. There are problems with non-faithful adaptations, which usually involve bad writing or bad directing… especially if the original was lauded for an original story or refreshing spin on an old cliche but then the director goes back to the same tired ones and completely trashes the freshness of the work which was praised in the first place. The two Type-Moon animes that exist (remember, Hisui says there was no Tsukihime Anime) show this – Fate/Stay Night was executed… okay, but not well – and as I noted, given the producers had promised to ALTER the story and had done so for the first few eps before going for a full-on Fate route as if the first six episodes didn’t happen was disappointing. Kara no Kyoukai is a faithful adaptation of the novels and is quite entertaining to watch as a piece of animation even if you’re not familiar with the work… but if you are familiar with it, the pleasure is increased by being able to actualy see scenes animated, and beautifully at that.

    Tsukihime which didn’t exist took Shiki Tohno and turned him from a person who was a normal schoolboy with a badass side into a generic harem lead…. and cut out Kohaku and Hisui for the most part. Tsukihime the MANGA, on the other hand…

    Well, just LOOK at this and tell me you don’t want to read it (Dr.Master’s up to Volume 5, and Volume 6 was released just this year in Japan if I remember it correctly):

    http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/haesslich/Manga/LunarLegendTsukihimev04_178-179.jpg
    http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/haesslich/Manga/LunarLegendTsukihimev04_180.jpg
    http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/haesslich/Manga/LunarLegendTsukihimev04_181.jpg
    http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/haesslich/Manga/LunarLegendTsukihimev04_182.jpg

    See? Everything that anime-which-didn’t-exist wasn’t. Dr. Master has this volume in print, along with the one afterwards. Ciel in her French baker’s outfit is…

    ( REPLY )

Leave a comment